Posts by Joe Grundy

34

I would like your opinion on Bertrand Russell's comment

by Terry in

could we discuss our reaction to bertrand russell's quote below?.

if i were asked to prove that zeus and poseidon and hera and the rest of the olympians do not exist, i should be at a loss to find conclusive arguments.

an agnostic may think the christian god as improbable as the olympians; in that case, he is, for practical purposes, at one with the atheists.. .

Joe Grundy

TD: thanks for that. I stand corrected.

34

I would like your opinion on Bertrand Russell's comment

by Terry in

could we discuss our reaction to bertrand russell's quote below?.

if i were asked to prove that zeus and poseidon and hera and the rest of the olympians do not exist, i should be at a loss to find conclusive arguments.

an agnostic may think the christian god as improbable as the olympians; in that case, he is, for practical purposes, at one with the atheists.. .

I really don't think that plausibility is a stumbling block to religious fundamentalists. They seem to have an ability to 'shut off' the questioning and reasoning part of their mind when it comes to their faith, to compartmentalise it, to resist the questions let alone seek to answer them.

My grandfather was a coal miner, a very tough man. In his younger days he was a bare-knuckle boxer and was a local champion. When he was 'converted' (I believe during one of the religious 'revivals' in the Welsh valleys) he became absolutely committed. He and a few friends built (literally) the gospel hall in their village (we knew it as the 'tin tabernacle' - but not in his hearing!). He believed the bible completely and literally. If thr bible had said that Jonah swallowed a whale, he would have believed that unquestioningly.

It's an interesting point about Galileo (could we equate it to the reception of Darwin's ideas later?). If you ask a 'fundie' about that issue today he'll perhaps find some biblical verse somewhere to 'show' that God said the Earth went round the Sun and if he's a fundie protestant he'll point out that RCs aren't really 'Christians' anyway.

The discussions about man's predisposition to religious or supernatural belief cite societal peer pressure as a very significant factor.

Your comment about the Puritans reminded me of the old quote (can't attribute it, sorry) which said that the Puritans left Britain in search of greater religious freedom - the freedom to persecute each other more than they had previously been allowed to do.

As for the Antipodes - which was the largest island in the world before Australia was discovered?

Australia.

Cheers

16

Vampires in the Church!!

by Terry in

does it concern vampires in the church?.

well, it does concern vampires........but....not yet in the church.. .

thus......like jesus.....vampires in the church.. .

Joe Grundy

I remember when I first came across the books of Maccabees (many years ago). The discovery raised some questions in my mind.

First was why these books weren't in the protestant bibles I was used to - which led to a whole lot of other questions ...

More importantly, I was trying to research the context in which the NT books came about. It seemed strange to me that the OT stopped abruptly and then the 'Jesus' story started. A bit like bad continuity between the first and second series in a drama.

The Maccabees helped to fill that in (as did many external sources) and helped explain about 'zealots' etc. I vaguely remember something which suggested that Jesus may have had a claim of descent from the Hasmonean kings.

Finding out more about the 'context' gave me more understanding about concepts such as 'render unto Caesar' and 'go the extra mile' - and helped me to see the NT and development of 'Christianity' in a more realistic light.

34

I would like your opinion on Bertrand Russell's comment

by Terry in

could we discuss our reaction to bertrand russell's quote below?.

if i were asked to prove that zeus and poseidon and hera and the rest of the olympians do not exist, i should be at a loss to find conclusive arguments.

an agnostic may think the christian god as improbable as the olympians; in that case, he is, for practical purposes, at one with the atheists.. .

Joe Grundy

'is there equivalency between the extraordinary claims of Christianty and Greek gods?'

IMHO, yes, absolutely - and the proposition can rightly be extended to all 'gods'. In different times and places people have believed/believe in their own gods just as enthusiatically as 'Christians' of whatever flavour do today. Lack of evidence doesn't seem to have ever been a bar to belief.

There are interesting discussions on the apparent predisposition of humans to 'need' a religion to believe in.

Scientific knowledge is increasingly rapidly, and its availability is increasing exponentially (for example, archaeology was in its infancy when C T Russell was doing his 'pyramidology' studies). In some cultures there is a growth in the number of people disposed to ask for proof, or at least a credible explanation.

And yet - there are a surprisingly large number of people in 'sophisticated' countries who believe that the world (and mankind) is 6,000 years old - JWs still teach it - and believe in one of the many creation myths despite all evidence to the contrary. That worries me a little, to be honest.

To the Greeks their gods were very real. One can sense this not only by visiting their temples and 'sacred sites' but vestiges remain today. In Paphos, Cyprus (the birthplace of Aphrodite (Venus), the 'goddess of love') they still hold the annual 'Katyklysmos' sea-based festival to commemorate her birth from the waves. The festival was later taken over by the Christian church (as were so many pagan festivals) as a celebration of the 'great flood' but they didn't really fool anybody.

As far as labels are concerned, I think most people understand 'agnostics' as 'doubters who haven't made their minds up' and atheists as 'those who say there is no god'. I'm an atheist.

PS: I'm no expert on 'Greek gods' but IIRC Hercules wasn't regarded as one, was he? I thought he was just one of the 'heroes'.

24

Field Service: Special Warnings?

by Joe Grundy in

i am not, never have been a jw.

raised in the plymouth brethren, now am an atheist.. .

i've recently had the 'benefit' of a couple of fs visits which i've previously reported here.. .

Joe Grundy

Thanks very much for the responses.

The picture I get is predominantly one of apathetic (or at least unenthusiastic) JWs going door-to-door because they feel they 'have to' and being met with a complete lack of interest by those they call on. Generalisations, I know, but it's no wonder why so many ex-JWs say what a depressing waste of time it all was.

I liked Steve2's comment 'when mad meets mad'!

I agree with the point about apathy being more difficult to deal with than opposition. In a different context someone said that the opposite of love is not hate but apathy. In modern parlance the 'yeah, whatever' attitude.

A little off-topic, I have only come across 'apostacy' as a big deal in two religions. One is JWs, of course, although most of their efforts are (theoretically) dedicated to convincing others to become 'apostates' from their own religion. The other is Islam - the penalty under Sharia law is death. If a JW 'converted' a Muslim to JWism how would their respective gods handle that?

24

Field Service: Special Warnings?

by Joe Grundy in

i am not, never have been a jw.

raised in the plymouth brethren, now am an atheist.. .

i've recently had the 'benefit' of a couple of fs visits which i've previously reported here.. .

Joe Grundy

'No Room For George' - sorry, I have no wish to make your position more difficult. I acce[t the points you make.

I have found through experience that often there is little point in entering discussion.

In an entirely different (but equally valid) context a distinguished commentator said: 'Why would you bother asking a Thai bar-girl a question when you know you can't believe the answer?'

24

Field Service: Special Warnings?

by Joe Grundy in

i am not, never have been a jw.

raised in the plymouth brethren, now am an atheist.. .

i've recently had the 'benefit' of a couple of fs visits which i've previously reported here.. .

Joe Grundy

Thanks for the responses.

I am an atheist, having come out from 'indoctrination' in the Plymouth Brethren as a youngster. Their ideas of 'shunning' are not so different.

My position now (and has been for quite some time) is that I would not wish to destroy anyone's faith (especially if they need it) I tend to hold my tongue. When I started my 'research' it took a long time and a lot of effort to find the sources. Now it takes a few seconds and a few 'clicks'.

43

Israelities so easily influenced by foreign Gods, Why.

by jam in

god delivered the israelities to the promise land.. he shield them from egypt army, fed them in the.

wilderness, open the sea and aided them in.

defeating their enemies.. joshua:24;16 "far be it from us that we should.

Joe Grundy

Thanks for the information posted here and the effort and time that went into it.

24

Field Service: Special Warnings?

by Joe Grundy in

i am not, never have been a jw.

raised in the plymouth brethren, now am an atheist.. .

i've recently had the 'benefit' of a couple of fs visits which i've previously reported here.. .

Joe Grundy

I am not, never have been a JW. Raised in the Plymouth Brethren, now am an atheist.

I've recently had the 'benefit' of a couple of FS visits which I've previously reported here.

The first was from a couple of old dears on a cold and rainy day who I should really have invited in for a warm-up and a cup of hot chocolate (but I didn't).

The second was from a young guy (about 17-18)and his sidekick. He was intelligent and articulate but, of course, his conversation was limited to WTBTS stuff. He gave me his literature: I gave him a note of this site address and another. I felt sorry for him - but this was tempered by the knowledge that he and/or his colleagues may just hit upon some poor vulnerable schmuck who may then be drawn into the WTBTS experince (or 'scam' as it is more properly known).

My question is this. With the benefit of availabilty of information that now exists (JWN, Richard Dawkins Foundation, etc.) more and more recipients of the 'benefits' of home visits have a lot more information available to them than ever before. In view of this, has WTBTS given any 'special warnings' or 'special briefings' to those it sends out to spread their 'message'?

36

I am now officially an Ex-JW!!!!

by Momma-Tossed-Me in

jw
friends

i am now officially by being announced at congregation level that i am no longer one of jehovahs wihtnesses.

that news spread like wild fire and i was dropped by all jw's on facebook, which shows the level of control the borg has in this area.

what is interesting is there was no juducial committee.

Joe Grundy

Congratulations!

Good luck with the next steps.